Okay, that's the questions I -- because Yellowknife doesn't -- I think that's about it. That's what I wanted to know, was how much was it subsidized and I didn't realize it was, because it just said subsidy program so. That's fine, if the Minister will get me the information. Thank you.
Thank you. Is there any further questions? I'm going to go to the Member from Yellowknife North.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. So the amount for short-term interest, it's budgeted at $6.1 million, and that's the same amount that was budgeted for in the 2024-2025 mains, but then the revised amount was -- well, getting close to twice that amount, over $11 million, and the 2023-2024 actuals were almost $20 million. Does the Minister feel that the budgeted amount is realistic for this coming fiscal year especially given the increased pressures and indication that we're going to have to increase our borrowing limit going forward? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.
Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. So this is an area that may well see a need to have a budget increase between now and 2025-2026, although that said, the last couple of years have had particularly high interest rates, and they only just came down not in time. If I recall correctly, we came down to our low -- it was only over the summer -- so if rates remain -- if interest rates remain low, we may well find that we can return back to a lower number, although we do now have an increased in short-term debt so there's a couple of things to be balancing in there. And if we can move -- you know, again, that's where a few years ago, you may -- well, folks may be aware that we moved some short-term debt to long-term debt because it secured it in at a lower rate. So a few different factors here. Again, I do anticipate this is a number that we need to look at because, yes, obviously in 2023-2024, extremely high rates, and even 2024-2025, although a little more manageable, still high. So I guess those are some of the factors, and I'll leave it there for the moment. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Member from Yellowknife North.
Okay, I appreciate those insights, and I'll be watching closely to where our interest levels end up.
I wanted to ask about the number of active positions. We have budgeted now an increase in seven active positions. I know the Minister mentioned that two are -- two new positions are allocated to the Financial and Employee Shared Services, the FESS. I do note that the new positions, five of them are for headquarters, and two are somewhere in the regional offices. Can the Minister explain why these new positions are needed or what they'll be doing? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. So there's a benefits officer being added in Inuvik and a benefits officer being added in Norman Wells. In addition to that, in the payroll office, there's a payroll clerk and payroll officer. That's four. And then with that in addition, one additional payroll supervisor on there and that, in part, is growth in terms of the number of staff and public servants that folks are monitoring.
And, Mr. Chair, before people ask me about whether the growth in public service is driving this, it's not purely or just singularly public service alone; there's also the contractors that these folks provide supports for. So it's not just the indeterminate officers or indeterminate workers but a much wider range of supports that they provide to anyone that they are issuing any form of payroll to. So, again, as I'm saying our contractors and locums and so on and so forth. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Member from Yellowknife North.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I mean, it is a bit of a wicked problem in some ways in that, you know, we need more staff to monitor the more staff that we're taking on. So it just is an added reminder that adding new positions has a broader sort of ripple effect on government finances than just those specific positions and the cost of those but in the other additional positions that we need to then help take care of those new positions. So I can understand how that is the case but just something we need to think about carefully with fiscal sustainability measures going forward. That's all for me. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Any further questions? No further questions, please turn to page 178.
Finance, Office of the Comptroller General, operations expenditure summary, 2025-2026 Main Estimates, $102,808,000. Does the committee agree?
Agreed.
Okay, committee. We're going to stop for a 20-minute break. We'll resume, and we'll continue on. Thank you.
---SHORT RECESS
Okay, so the committee wants to continue on, and we will.
Moving on, thank you. There are additional information items on page 181 to 186. Are there any questions?
Thank you, Members. Please return now to the department summary found on page 159 with information items on page 160 to 161. Are there any questions? Seeing no further questions, committee, I will now call the departmental summary. Finance, operations expenditures, total department, 2025-2026 Main Estimates, $407,895,000. Does the committee agree?
Agreed.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Member from Inuvik Boot Lake.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I move that this committee defer further consideration of the 2025-2026 Main Estimates for the Department of Finance at this time. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. The motion is in order. To the motion.
Question.
Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion carried.
---Carried
Consideration of the Department of Finance, operations expenditure, 2025-2026 Main Estimates, total department is deferred.
What is the wish of the committee? I'll go to the Member from Inuvik Boot Lake.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I recommend the chair rise and report progress.
Thank you. The motion is in order. The motion is non-debatable. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion carried. I will now rise and report progress. Thank you.
---Carried
We're going to go eat and you guys can stay. Anyways, Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the witnesses from the chambers.
Mr. Speaker, your committee has been considering Tabled Document 275-20(1) and would like to report progress, one motion carried, and, Mr. Speaker, I move that report of the committee of the whole be concurred with. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Thank you, Member from Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh. Can I have a seconder to the motion. Member from Inuvik Boot Lake. Close, but Inuvik Boot Lake. All those in favour? Opposed? Abstentions? Okay, motion passed.
---Carried
Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Thebacha, that Bill 19, Supplementary Appropriation Act (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 3, 2024-2025, be read for the third time. Mr. Speaker, I would request a recorded vote. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Thank you. The motion in order. To the motion.
Question.
The Member for Yellowknife South. The Member for Kam Lake. The Member for Hay River South. The Member for Inuvik Twin Lakes. The Member for Nunakput. The Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh. The Member for Deh Cho. The Member for Sahtu. The Member for Yellowknife Centre. The Member for Range Lake. The Member for Inuvik Boot Lake. The Member for Monfwi. The Member for Frame Lake. The Member for Great Slave. The Member for Mackenzie Delta. The Member for Yellowknife North. The Member for Thebacha.
All those opposed, please stand. All those abstaining, please stand.
17 in favour, zero opposed, zero abstentions. The motion is carried. Bill 19 has had its third reading of bills.
---Carried
Third reading of bills. Minister of Finance.
Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Inuvik Twin Lakes, that Bill 20, Supplementary Appropriation Act (Operations Expenditures and Borrowing Authorization), No. 2, 2024-2025, be read for the third time. Mr. Speaker, I would request a recorded vote. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Thank you. The motion is in order. To the motion. Member for Range Lake.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, it's rare that we speak to routine business of supply such as supplementary estimates but in this case, I feel compelled to raise a protest to our continued pattern of expenditures well exceeding our revenues despite things like the fiscal strategy put in place to control them. We continue to fail to meet our targets. The messaging is very mixed in public and in this House as to whether or not we have a very solid foundation for our finances or one that's incredibly shaky, and I think that confusion resonates outside of this institution as well.
So I said when we debated these in the Committee of the Whole that I wasn't going to write any blank cheques to the government on this one, and I intend to keep my word on that one. We went through the detail of that document and many -- you know, probed the questions that needed to be -- answer the questions that needed to be -- or asked the questions that needed to be asked and ultimately reviewed that spending but, at the same time, as substantiated as it is, it still represents significant overruns from where the main estimates put the government's proposed spending, especially around health care. And now we have new information on hand where appropriations for health care are being approved before we actually see the budget, and perhaps that's why we see these overruns.
We have a lot of work to do in this Assembly to get our fiscal house in order. I've listened, I've heard clearly from our Finance Minister that that needs to be a goal that's priority. If fact, I urged this government to make it a priority of the 20th Assembly. And that unfortunately was not the case. So we were spending an inordinate amount of time talking about this and -- because it is a -- or it is -- there's a great need, but it not being a political priority makes it much more difficult to address because it has to take a backseat to everything else we do and this is what I mean about the confusion. You know, we need -- we have four priorities and fiscal restraint is not one of them, and it should be, because it is increasingly becoming a topic of subject and debate in this House.
So all that being said, I do not feel like I can support this budget at this time until we have clarity on our fiscal priorities and a real plan to get our finances in order. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Thank you, Member from Range Lake. To the motion. Member from Yellowknife Centre.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Similarly, I want to say, and independently -- I want to stress that as well. I've come to similar conclusions that I'm worried about the overall foundation we're building. First of all, we didn't -- Members at large weren't involved in the edict issued over a year ago saying this is how we're going to control and manage our finances, and now we hear how close we are to our debt wall. It sends a weird message back to we have spending freezes, but it doesn't sound like we have the authorities to follow through on them. They're just suggestions. It's not that I don't think the Minister's trying, the bureaucracy's trying, but eventually someone's going to have to just try harder by sending that type of clear direction by saying we cannot get all of what we want this time around, and we have to wait.
I mean, this government has the essence, as I was speaking to some people on the weekend, their perception is is that it's funded largely on the good wills of our future, and I worry that debt will become the solution to our future. And even when we heard about expanding the debt limit, you know, we hear the message of we don't have a plan for it, we just want it, and we want it to back our future. But my view is it's not good debt. If I'd gone to the bank and said I just want more debt potential, they'd be saying, and? And so if they said if you were buying something of infrastructure such as a highway, such as a Taltson expansion, something that created tangible investments and good results, you know, it would make sound sense.
Anyway, I am going to vote against this, and hence I just wanted to put it officially on record. And I did speak to it in Committee of the Whole as well, but I don't see any reason to go too long at length. I've already made my point. Thank you.
Thank you, Member from Yellowknife Centre. To the motion.
Question.
The Member for Yellowknife South. The Member for Kam Lake. The Member for Hay River South. The Member for Inuvik Twin Lakes. The Member for Nunakput. The Member from Deh Cho. The Member from Sahtu. The Member from Inuvik Boot Lake. The Member from Monfwi. The Member for Frame Lake. The Member for Great Slave. The Member for Mackenzie Delta. The Member for Yellowknife North. The Member for Thebacha.
All those opposed, please stand.
The Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh. The Member for Yellowknife Centre. The Member for Range Lake.
All those abstaining, please stand.
14 in favour, 3 opposed, zero abstentions. The motion is carried.
---Carried
Bill 20 has had its third reading.
Orders of the day for Wednesday, February 12th, 2025, at 1:30 p.m.
Prayer or Reflection
Ministers’ Statements
Members’ Statements
Returns to Oral Questions
Oral Question 475-20(1), Budgeting Process for Northwest Territories Health and Social Services Authority
Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery
Replies to the Budget Address (Day 5 of 7)
Acknowledgements
Oral Questions
Written Questions
Returns to Written Questions
Replies to the Commissioner’s Address
Petitions
Reports of Committees on the Review of Bills
Reports of Standing and Special Committees
Tabling of Documents
Notices of Motion
Motions
Notices of Motion for First Reading of Bills
First Reading of Bills
Second Reading of Bills
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Tabled Document 275-20(1), 2025-2026 Main Estimates
Report of Committee of the Whole
Third Reading of Bills
Orders of the Day
