Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, this particular gap-filling exercise was focused on support assistants specifically. I understand there may be other work happening between education, culture and employment and health and social services to assist in the space of speech pathologists for example, but this specifically is for supporting of the support assistants. Thank you.
Thank you. Member from Yellowknife North.
Thank you, Madam Chair. So this other work that may be ongoing to address gaps left by the removal of Jordan's Principal funding around therapeutic supports like speech-language pathologists, is there money planned for that? Is that located anywhere else in this supplementary budget, or is the government contemplating bringing forward another supplementary estimate in the next round? I'm glad to know that there's work underway, but I'm concerned if there is no money allocated or new money allocated then, and if we're just sort of shuffling around existing funding for education bodies then we might not be able to meaningfully fill those gaps for the therapeutic supports and the other kinds of things that Jordan's Principal was finding. Can the Minister clarify where that funding will come from? Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, when the federal government changed a program that was legislated earlier this spring, the resulting impacts to just the education system alone, not including necessarily what may have been funded under sort of a more health care sort of focus, but this left a gap of $58.6 million, which is one that built up over the course of several years as school boards became more aware about Jordan's Principal and were able to develop programs to support Indigenous students. And so when the changes came down that altered the way in which school boards could line up to apply, the gap was huge. Now, there's been some modifications, I understand, coming from the federal government. This is not -- I'm not in a position here in the context of the supplementary appropriation process to speak to what the federal government has modified in the intervening months following some significant advocacy by many leaders. Certainly happy, I'm sure -- I'm sure the Minister would be happy to speak to it, but -- so this, simply put, does not fill all of the gaps from Jordan's Principal, not by a stretch, but this is really meant to focus in on one very specific area which is support assistants which was an area that we were concerned was not -- that needed to get dealt with as early as possible before the school year because of the concern that folks who were in these roles may well leave or be in different positions. So that is all that this is meant to cover, and it's only meant to cover the ones, again, for this coming year who were immediately affected. Some school boards have multi-year funding. They wouldn't be under this program because this isn't sort of for those that are denied their applications by the federal government. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Member for Yellowknife North.
Thank you, Madam Chair. So I do appreciate that clarification, and we'll have to follow up in the coming days or weeks about how those gaps can be addressed.
Finally, I just wanted to ask about for us to not fully lose sight of the second item there which is funding to support the national school food program agreement. And I understand that this is offset by federal revenues. Can the Minister explain whether that money then will be able to cover school -- well, what exactly it covers. Are we now going to ensure that there are meals being provided in every school in the territory? Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, there is -- I would sort of direct, if you may, the Member and others interested to the Healthy Food for Learning foods program that is in the national school food program which has a one-year action plan here for 2024-2025. That is now being actioned and funded through this funding, and then the funding is allocated to different education bodies at different rates depending upon the I presume the size, although again I don't have the breakdown as to exactly whether it's entirely based on, you know, just pure numbers or some other qualitative assessment. But it is allocated by education body across the Northwest Territories and what each body then does with that, again, I would point back to the school action -- or sorry, the food action plan. But I can't say exactly as to what each individual education authority might be doing with their funding. Thank you.
Next I have Member for Monfwi.
Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. Well, first, I want ask the Minister why Jordan's Principal application were denied in Yellowknife if they had -- yes, I want to ask why, if they know, why was denied.
Thank you. Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I mean if I might be so bold as to say I don't know why any Jordan's Principal funding application that was coming from a school professional, who would have presumably understood and known the needs of the children that are in their care for the full day, would be denied on behalf of Indigenous children in the Northwest Territories. Our government did not make that decision. The federal government made that decision. That said, they are working, I believe, towards finding a path that will modify some of the changes that were made back in the spring. I can't speak for the federal government. They have their own budget coming out in less than a month. Hopefully, in that budget we will see some changes therein. This has been an issue raised by a number of leaders, ourselves at the Council of Leaders table, pointing out that the political organization of the North is different and that the way that the Jordan's Principal funding was coming through needs to be recognized for that and, again, hoping that we will see some modification in their approach. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Monfwi.
Thank you. Okay, because I know this $14 million came about because the majority of the people -- or majority of the positions affected Yellowknife school. You know, like, I think we were talking about, like, 75 positions that were affected. And I have an issue with that, you know. If we don't know why $14 million -- or why JP application were denied in -- especially in Yellowknife, was never a major issue for us in small communities because we know the majority of the -- are Indigenous, so it's being utilized well. So why are we spending $14 million? So where is this $14 million going to come from? Thank you.
Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, this came forward through the Department of Education, Culture and Employment to support the fact that Indigenous children in schools across the Northwest Territories were going to be very directly impacted. 205 positions from across the Northwest Territories were being immediately affected with this first year of denials coming from the federal government. And there were certainly a large number of students affected here in Yellowknife because there's a great deal of Indigenous students here in Yellowknife. We have 50 percent of the population. So while it may not be a majority Indigenous community, there's a lot of Indigenous students here, the highest number of any capital city anywhere in Canada. Beyond that, the Beaufort Delta was the second highest number that were being immediately affected because those school boards did not have multi-year funding or their funding programs had expired this year. But those that didn't experience these changes this year were certainly going to be facing that next year. So this is a gap-filling exercise for the moment. Again, we're looking to the federal government to reconsider how they can, you know, get back to the core principles, Jordan's Principle, which is to ensure that Indigenous students wherever they may be, whether it's in a capital city or otherwise, all have access to the kinds of programs and services that we know that they need.
Madam Chair, I'm certainly happy to get a breakdown, but I -- again, I don't know to what extent the boards want that to be necessarily a public number. So I'll just want to make sure that I'm not sharing information on behalf of school boards that they don't want me to, but I can certainly get it to MLAs. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Monfwi.
Thank you. Okay, well, we know that the majority of the positions are going to be allocated in Yellowknife, you know, so we know that, you know. So I just wanted to ask another one too is that is this going to be one-time funding, or is the government going to permanently fund this? Thank you.
Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Right now, this is a one-time funding situation. And I realize I failed to ask one of the other questions on the last round as to where it's coming from. This is being debt funded. We are not in a position where we have excess money in the education system. We are looking for, and we've made that very clear to the federal government. So there already have been, I understand, some changes and some modifications where they will accept individual applications that come through a school board but, again, this is their program, and I'm hesitant to say what changes they have made or will make. But, really, Madam Chair, the focus here is on Indigenous northern students. This is who are -- these are the students that are losing the funding. Again, 25,000 people live in the city of Yellowknife, and I think approximately 30 percent of them are Indigenous Northerners. So to the extent that those children are affected first, they are affected first. The Beaufort Delta is second in line right now, though. They have a large number of children that were affected. And it really -- this is a gap-filler but it's really a line of sight on the federal government to say we cannot continue to support this. It was a legislated program, and it was put in place because we all recognize, I believe, that Indigenous children have been historically and systemically not given the same opportunities that non-Indigenous children have. So, again, I'll stop there, Madam Chair. Again, my frustration on this one is that despite a lot of requests, that we are still waiting to see what the federal government might do. Again, I'm hopeful that we will see some changes that make this not a program that the GNWT has to take on. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Monfwi.
I see it says here, you know, service gap relating to educational support assistants. Why, why only this? Why not on speech and language, OT, etcetera, to help improve the outcome of our students, the educational outcome for our students, especially those starting at elementary, JK? The overall picture here should have been focusing on improving the education outcome. You know, in small communities we have on average less than 50 percent graduation rate compared to over 80 percent in Yellowknife, you know. The outcome for YK is better than small communities, and we know it has always been like that with funding allocations. The federal government gives the money to the territorial government and once it gets distributed to the small communities, we get a small portion. It's always been like that. We always been a disadvantage and I am, you know, kind of disappointed because now this $14 million came about to support larger regional centre. If this was already happening in small communities, I don't think we would get that attention. If Yellowknife graduation rate was low, it would get national attention. And what do we get? We get nothing. You know, like, I mean, here we're -- our young people leaving high school. They all -- all of them, the majority of them, enter high school or college going upgrading. There's, you know, OCAP and UCAP through Aurora College. And it doesn't look good. It doesn't look good. It's just that it should have been the focus right from beginning when they're allocating money. We shouldn't have to fight for this money. But we are, you know, and it's disappointing. I am disappointed with that because I think small -- the results, the educational outcome should have been the focus, central focus. There's no way that, you know -- it's hard for us. It's going to be hard for us now because we lack a lot of services. It's going to be hard for us, for our young people, who are the future generation, to catch up.
Now I heard from one of my constituents who used to live in Yellowknife. She had to relocate to larger region -- larger centre down south just so that -- because Yellowknife failed to meet her needs through JP program. Now she's going further south with her child. And small community, they go to Yellowknife because the services are better. Now it's the other way around that a lot of our young people are -- or our families or the families are going south for better services. So it's just that I think if they're fighting for -- if they're going to be doing this, they should have been doing more for small communities, more emphasis should have been given for more program and services at the school level because we are -- our young people are always going to be at disadvantage. Small communities are always going to be at disadvantage. It's just -- I don't agree with it, I don't like it, because it's putting a lot of your young people at risk and we're putting their life on hold, and it's just -- it's a disaster. For me it is, you know. It's just not right what we're doing here just because the $14 million -- the larger part, it affects Yellowknife. That's why. So I don't really agree with this or, you know -- it just doesn't sit well with me. Thank you.
Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, the item that came forward from education, culture, employment in response to the federal government's decision to take away money from Indigenous students did not apply to Yellowknife exclusively. It does not apply to any individual community or education body exclusively. It is for school boards who are being denied their funding that they were receiving through Jordan's Principal. If a school board is being denied funding anywhere in the Northwest Territories, they can apply to this fund. It so happens that the two largest school boards in Yellowknife, one of them is not eligible because they are not right now under -- well, they are under a multi-year program and so they are not applying. One of them was under a single-year program, and they are applying. But as I said, Beaufort Delta is another one of the larger centres that is seeing themselves -- finding themselves first affected by the federal government's program cut changes. But, Madam Chair, I don't want to spend a lot of time on this. I see the time on the clock has gone. I can't say enough that even in Yellowknife the numbers came out earlier this spring with respect to graduation rates and success rates of students. Indigenous students in Yellowknife do not perform as well as the non-Indigenous students, and they deserve to have every opportunity as well. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Next, I have Member for Range Lake.
Oh, thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. I thought I heard Great Slave but thank you very much for the opportunity to ask questions.
So I too want to query the Minister about this subsidy program for the service gap related to Jordan's Principal funding. Jordan's Principal funding is fundamental to our schools in the Northwest Territories. That's how it's been described by both -- well, I think the Minister at the table and the Minister of education, Minister of health, to the point where it is being referred to as foundational. So I think that creates a challenge because, one, I get the advocacy to the federal government saying this is not optional, you need to step up and continue to deliver the service that you've been providing to support our schools. But if they do withdraw it, then it puts us in a difficult situation if we're maintaining it's foundational to our education system but we can't afford it. So I think we're going to have to take a broader look depending on how these changes go.
So the first thing I want to ask is just a comment the Minister made -- and I don't have the benefit of Hansard, but it was along the lines of there may be some JP funding change discussion that might be had but not here on this item, but to the Minister of education I just want to clarify, is that just if we want to ask questions about Jordan's Principal, it would be better suited for the Minister of education, or is there new information to share that we can expect in the coming days? Thank you, Madam Chair.
Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I mean, I appreciate the question. I do think that's an important question to ask. It's probably a question to ask to the federal minister. So, I mean, we were just there, all of Cabinet, Council of Leaders met with Minister Gull-Masty, met with Minister Chartrand and, you know, the indications seemed to be that they've heard us because it's certainly not by any stretch the first time that they've heard any one of a number of Ministers saying, you know, this was a legislated program that the federal government came and brought about. No indication that when the program review, you know, for probably not unreasonable grounds was going to come forward as it -- you know, there's certainly stories or anecdotes that seem to suggest the program wasn't being always effectively used. But there's lots of opportunity to show where it was being well used. So we seem to be getting the sense, I would venture to say, from our federal counterparts, we've heard you, you know. We understand that the North is different, we want to respond to the North being different, but as for what that's going to look like, it's gone a little bit quiet and I suspect it's because they have a budget coming out November 4th. So maybe someone will hear more in the coming days. It would likely go first to our education Minister if it does. But at this moment in time, I don't think I have anything more on that one. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Range Lake.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Well, I appreciate that answer. I would love to ask those questions to the federal Ministers directly, so I'll take that as an invitation to join the Minister on the next trip to Ottawa. That's what -- I think that's what I heard, but I'll follow up with her. Maybe they will this time.
Okay, so -- okay, the total -- we just heard the total amount for JP funding last year was $58.6 million. So if we -- do we have a calculation for -- if we remove the multi-year funding that is not being lost, so for school districts like Yellowknife Catholic schools that have multi-year arrangements that aren't lapsing, do we know what that looks like? Like, what was the anticipated amount of Jordan's Principal funding that we are covering or that has created the gap? What is the total quantum, financial quantum of the gap? Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I don't have that. The $58.6 million number that I had put forward is based on the current fiscal year and really for education authorities only. And when adding in 2025-2026 but then also considering that there would have been some elements, for example, if there's diagnostic services or treatment services or care, health care related services, I don't have that number. So the number certainly does start to grow when we add all of that in. I can see if we can put that together. It may be that it is -- I don't have in front of me right now. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Range Lake.
Thank you, Madam Chair. And I appreciate -- just to be clear, I will -- I mean, I'm going to continue to ask questions, but I appreciate this emergency funding, and I support it. I think it came a little late, and it's still -- until we know what that total quantum is, it's unclear whether $14 million is a significant amount. So my other question related to this is there's strings attached to this money. The Minister spoke to some of the eligibility requirements. But one of them is that education bodies have to first use their surpluses. So do we know how much surplus money is being spent alongside this $14 million? So how much surplus from the education bodies is being spent alongside the $14 million? Thank you.
Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, so that would depend, I think, on the individual education bodies. I was -- let me see if -- yes, I mean, it's certainly -- there's an understanding of -- my understanding -- sorry, is that there is work being done with each applicant to determine, firstly, if they have some surplus funding available to them but then also what their own expenditure plans may be. And certainly not wanting to -- certainly by no means a matching criteria, like a one-for-one, but I don't know that there's a specific -- or there is not a specific number that I can provide. Thank you.
Member for Range Lake.
Thank you. And I know it's not matching, but the criteria is very much dependent on you use your surplus before you get to these numbers. And that has caused consternation from some school education bodies who have expressed concern about this. And I want to stress that education bodies are not in a position to criticize programs every time I've met with them regardless of where they're at in the territory or which region they serve. It is very clear that this is a -- you know, they have a lot of needs and students with a lot of needs and are chronically underfunded. So anytime funding comes along, they're not going to say bad things about it, but they may offer a criticism. And in a CBC article on September 22nd, the South Slave Divisional Education Council spoke to this surplus requirement as a, quote: This would set us up for failure. The YK1 said, quote: I basically applied on a hope and a prayer to see if we'd be eligible for anything. So those kind of statements in contrast to this do cause me concern because that does not sound like there's a clear pathway for the eligibility requirements. So do we know how this money is going to break down by regions? I mean, my colleague from Monfwi asked some pretty pointed questions about this too, about where this money is going. So let's just -- how are we going to account for this? I'm assuming we'll see it in the public accounts in some form but, like, are we going to see it in the education bodies? Are they going to be reporting on it? Like, how can we get a wrap-up to make sure that this is maximizing impact? And some of these unanswered questions about, like, how many surplus dollars are coming forward, which students are being affected; everything we basically said today, how can we see that at the end of the day? Because right now there -- I don't think this is as transparent as it ought to be. And, again, I will join the chorus of everyone here, I think, saying this is a responsibility to the federal government and it was a very bad decision for the North to do what they did, but right now we're talking about this program and how we're using it to maximize the benefits to northern students. So if the Minister can tackle some of those issues. Thank you.
Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Madam Chair. So I'll say at the outset I am trying to avoid saying exactly the number that the boards don't want to spend. I don't necessarily have their blessing to say those numbers that are on the floor for them or that are before them for decisions. So what I can say is this, that right now what was requested in order to participate in this program which, again, is, you know, us stepping in for the federal government when we're really ill-funded to do so. So I hear the frustration, and I appreciate the frustration from the boards, but we also weren't expecting to be filling rather the significant gap on just a few months' notice when we were already through our main estimates process. But what's required is really, firstly, the confirmation that an application to the federal government's been denied. Secondly, a specific number that's being requested, so how many positions are being requested, including where they were at in terms of the salary level. And then last but not least is this issue of a confirmation that if there is some surplus available to the board and that there's some amount from that that's being allocated based on the number of support positions that they're looking to use. So that's where -- when I'm saying there's not a specific formula or a number, it's because it's dependent upon how much of a surplus a particular board has, how many positions they're looking to fund, and also ensuring that any request to use that surplus wouldn't impact expenditure projects. So particularly if the surplus is being used, for example, to replace a roof or do something else, wanting to avoid dipping into that. That's the system now. I'll stop there for the clock. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Range Lake.
Thank you. I just think we need to have some very clear reporting on it just so we understand it. But maybe that is a question for the education Minister.
Finally, I guess if we could put it into terms, we often ask this, like how much money is represented when it's being spent on staffing in particular or programs, how much does it actually represent. So out of $14 million, how many EAs is that employing or EA positions is that creating? Thank you.
Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I mean, it would be sort of upwards of 170 is the best estimate I can have right now. I mean, and again, that would depend on the final applications. But the projection of the $14 million is that it should cover 172 based on average costs. But, again, my hesitancy just being depending on whether or not school boards are able to help support this gap from the exercise, that may fund more positions. Thank you.
Thank you. Next, I have Member for YK Centre.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I think most of my questions largely have been answered by my colleagues here, but I'll just clarify just one point because it sounded like it was folding into the question and folding out of the question, which is even though this is educational assistant money, is some of it intended for Jordan's Principal money in that? Thank you.
Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Madam Chair. To the extent that Jordan's Principal system was being previously used to support these education assistants, then yes. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for YK Centre.
