Thank you. Member for Monfwi.
Yeah, well, that's good. Then maybe we can identify and include woodland caribou in there as well. Thank you.
Thank you. Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I made sure that the Minister of ECC was nodding along. Thank you.
Thank you. Supplementary Estimates (Operations Expenditures), No. 2, 2025-2026, Department of Environment and Climate Change, wildlife and forest management, not previously authorized, $41,059,000. Does the committee agree?
Agreed.
Supplementary Estimates (Operations Expenditures), No. 2, 2025-2026, Department of Environment and Climate Change, total department, not previously authorized, $46,847,000. Does the committee agree?
Agreed.
Committee, we will now consider the Department of Executive and Indigenous Affairs on page 5.
Supplementary Estimates (Operations Expenditures), No. 2, 2025-2026, Executive and Indigenous Affairs, governance and service integration, not previously authorized, $373,000. Does the committee agree?
Agreed.
Supplementary Estimates (Operations Expenditures), No. 2, 2025-2026, Executive and Indigenous Affairs, total department, not previously authorized, $373,000. Does the committee agree?
Agreed.
Committee, we will now consider the Department of Finance on page 6.
Supplementary Estimates (Operations Expenditures), No. 2, 2025-2026, Department of Finance, directorate, not previously authorized, $12 million. Does the committee agree? Member for Frame Lake.
That's okay, Madam Chair. As I said before, there's a lot of lakes in Yellowknife.
The first question I have on this one is, is any percentage of this $12 million needed to be required because of the acquisition of infrastructure associated with the takeover of Hay River infrastructure by NTPC from Atco? Thank you.
Thank you. Minister of Finance.
No, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member for Frame Lake.
Okay, thank you. That's a fairly simple answer. Can the Minister help us understand the need for this additional funding, why it came about, and just the basis for it. Thanks.
Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, so this is to do with the low water events of the last couple of years. So there's a couple of different tools that are used to manage low water. One is the rate stabilization fund that people would contribute to in small portions over the course of time and to which the GNWT at times has to contribute to maintain that fund, but -- and this is the second year of funding where in order to maintain the fund to the level required by the public utilities board, the GNWT has stepped in to support because the drawdown has been more significant than what was available in the fund. It certainly would be the hope that -- it is expected this is the last year that this would happen but that longer term having the rider there would allow us to mitigate those costs over a longer period in the future. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Is the Minister aware of any data that the department -- I know that the department of ECC collects data on changes in water levels throughout the NWT. Is there anything indicating that the current low water levels have any chance of changing over time? What I'm asking is should we be expecting that this problem is going to continue?
Thank you. Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I do see the hydrology reports that come through as well to the Northwest Territories Power Corporation. And, you know, whether or not I can say at this point in the year whether or not next year would be similar or better or otherwise, it is too early for me to say, and I certainly wouldn't want to be the person that comes to that conclusion, Madam Chair. I can say that we do have a resiliency study that is expected later this fall. It's a resiliency study on the Snare system because it is the Snare and the Bluefish system that experience low water levels. The Taltson system has more -- a larger watershed to draw from and has not experienced these same cyclical events.
So, again, I would just defer that question, I guess, until sort of end of this calendar year, and hopefully we will have a better -- bit of a better sense at that point what the resiliency might need to be or could be going forward. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.
Thank you, Madam Chair. And, yeah, the Minister dovetailed perfectly into -- or segued, I guess, into my next question which was going to be what are we doing about this problem. So resiliency study, I'm glad to hear that we're taking some action. I'm assuming that the -- is the resiliency study -- the purpose of the study, of course, I'm hoping is going to be to develop recommendations for how to make the system more resilient. It seems to be implied in the name, but I just want to confirm.
Thank you. Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Madam Chair. So on the study itself, Madam Chair, it does include looking at alternatives, including hydro storage, whether or not additional hydro generation is necessary, as well as the role of renewables in the region. Madam Chair, it's certainly not -- I don't want to leave the impression that it's the only work that is happening in general on resiliency. There is, I think, a fairly strong awareness within the Northwest Territories Power Corporation that this is an area that continues to be a problem repeatedly. It's not a problem in the South Slave where we have too much power but very old assets that are becoming extremely expensive to maintain. It is a problem on the north side of the lake where we don't have enough power certainly during these cyclical events and yet are not connected to our southern grid.
So there are also, you know, efforts underway to connect, as Madam Chair would well know, the community of Fort Providence, which is not necessarily an issue of low water but certainly is one of resiliency of the system overall as well as Whati, as well as looking at whether or not there are other generating capacity on parts of these systems. So, for instance, in Lac La Marte, under micro hydro, a run a river type system or a kinetic system in Fort Providence and/or other renewable projects potentially through the Yellowknives Dene First Nation here closer to Yellowknife. So all of that does need to fit itself together to make sure that where we need the power gets the power, where we have too much power can utilize that power and at the same time mindful of the fact that the -- again, the infrastructure costs are significant in this space. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.
Thank you, Madam Chair. No, I really appreciate those answers from the Minister, and I will be waiting with bated breath for that resiliency study to come out.
I guess the last question I'll ask and then I'll cede would be I'm assuming, because the Minister has mentioned it, that the study is going to be made public and available to MLAs. So I'll be looking forward to seeing that. Thank you.
Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I don't know if there's any constraints on putting it out publicly, although that certainly would be my inclination subject to something in there that I'm not aware of and at the very least could certainly share it with MLAs under confidentiality and at least could get it moving there initially.
Madam Chair, I am conscious of time, but I have a couple minutes left. I will just note that there's also work happening in terms of NTPC's longer term capital plan for Jackfish and Snare which not dissimilar to the Taltson system, which was built in the '60s and '70s, these two diesel generators are also very much due for some upgrading, and those costs are already being looked at so that we could be ready to go in the event that funding were to become available. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.
That's it. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Next, I have Member from Inuvik Boot Lake.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, this is the second year in a row that we've had to do a supplemental appropriation for the power corp, and I understand why. Our committee has been briefed thoroughly on why the $12 million's going in it and what we're doing to stabilize our rates or at least stabilize but to ensure that our rates don't skyrocket even more.
I guess my question for the Minister and staff is that do we even consider the option or looking at options to do some kind of privatization around our power corporation, P3 options, and things like that? Kind of think outside the box a little. I know I brought it up a couple times, and I know it's a -- it's a big ask, but something to even look at considering working with Indigenous governments, you know, where we -- you know, where we look at doing a P3 on the transmission and the distribution, we maintain the power supply, things like that that's been done in other jurisdictions. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Minister of Finances.
Absolutely, Madam Chair. The answer is yes. And I will be frank in saying I think that the energy costs and lack of resiliency in our system is probably one of the strongest long-term challenges that I certainly worry about. It is a huge cost driver for the GNWT and a huge cost driver for residents and businesses, and the cost of fixing it are huge and generally, because of the way public utilities work, would go directly back to the ratepayers, which is untenable given the costs that we pay. And there we sit in this very challenging situation. So I appreciate the call for some creativity. I would say there are a couple of things happening and happy that Members would follow up and continue to follow up on them. Example one, Madam Chair, being the 11 policy directives that were issued by the GNWT earlier this year to the public utilities board which included items that have long been asked for to give some flexibility, such as a better resiliency study to under -- or an integrated power system study to actually understand what is happening across the system, as well as the ability to enter into power generating -- or independent power producer agreements with communities and including, in many cases, would be Indigenous nations and governments.
Madam Chair, also we do have a new board that is starting to come in. We have the first two appointments and a new chair of that board intending to be at arm's length from the GNWT. And one of the benefits that I would suggest immediately from that is going to be a perspective that is hopefully driven from outside with maybe some innovative ideas, different ideas, and a very different perspective. And that we have issued a direction letter to them, to align with the 11 policy directives, to align and to point out the challenges that I've been articulating. And so again happy to -- while it's a little outside perhaps the scope of the supp, Madam Chair, it's something that I am happy to speak to and happy to see some attention paid to. It is a challenge, and it will be -- continue to be a challenge for some time. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Inuvik Boot Lake.
Thank you, Madam Chair. And thank you for that, Minister. And I do realize it is a little outside the supp but I would argue that, you know, there's a reason we're coming back year after year for a supp the past couple years and, you know, governments typically are really good at governing, not always good at managing business, Madam Chair, and not our government -- just our government, but many governments. So if you look at Indigenous governments that often partner up with companies that are good at doing certain things and it's what they do, it's their core business, oftentimes you can find there's some opportunities there that could actually look at reducing costs for the government and then, you know, in turn reducing costs for our ratepayers. So appreciate that the Minister's at least, you know, interested in that. I appreciate the -- that there is now a new board in there and I think that's -- it's good. We've been waiting for that, and I look forward to further discussions around the possibility of looking a little outside the box when it comes to power. Thank you very much.
Thank you. Minister of Finance, okay. Thank you, Members. Supplementary Estimates (Operations Expenditures) -- oh sorry, Member for Yellowknife North.
Thank you, Madam Chair. So in the Minister's previous answer, she talked about the reason for this $12 million expenditure is low water levels. Can we then assume that what we're actually talking about here is the burning of diesel due to low water, and can the Minister confirm do we know how much of that $12 million was spent on diesel? Can it be broken down like that? Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I mean, at the end of the day, Madam Chair, fundamentally the supplementary appropriation is being used to maintain -- or to reduce and to preserve the cost of power for the ratepayers or the residents. I certainly can get a more specific breakdown on the costs of diesel. I don't know if I have it in front of me, but let me see if perhaps the deputy minister has it or perhaps our secretary to the financial management board. Thank you Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.
Okay. Thank you, Madam Chair. The Minister also spoke at length in her answer about challenges with low water and resiliency in the North Slave in particular. I wonder if this might be too much to hope for at a moment's notice, but there's also been a lot of extra costs in the South Slave around the Taltson repairs and extended repairs and having to burn diesel even in the South Slave or the Taltson system. Does the Minister have any breakdown of how much of this $12 million might be due to costs of extra diesel in the North Slave versus the South Slave? Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Madam Chair. So, Madam Chair, this really does relate, I believe, and I certainly would correct myself immediately if I'm -- if there's anything wrong, but it's with respect to the low water events that impact on the Snare system still. So that was a couple of years where there was increase in diesel being burned, and I'm fairly certain that I have seen a chart showing a return to the usage of hydropower in the North Slave, so I'll see if I can locate that and can provide that to Members as well.
But with respect to what's happening in the Taltson, particularly right now, Madam Chair, so we will recall that there was an overhaul of the Taltson facility that happened in 2023 but owing to the timing that resulted from the evacuations of that year, it watered up in the winter and then wound up in a situation where it had to effectively be opened back up and put back together again to deal with the winter re-watering. That has happened and, unfortunately, we have discovered, Madam Chair, that the surge tank, which is a big, huge tank out in front of the diesel generator -- or in front of the hydro generator as it was about to get watered back up is, in fact, quite corroded over, again, being an extremely old item. So this was already on the plan to get refurbished. It was already on the plan to get replaced and updated. It's just had to move up a little faster in the plan given that it is needed. So that is happening right now. Obviously, that wasn't expected for this year's capital plan for the power corporation, but -- and so that cost will have to get moved up. But, again, it was in the longer term plan, just not necessarily here. So there will be costs associated for the period of time that diesel is being burned in the South Slave because we can't use the hydro facility without ensuring all the components are safe. But part of the reason for accelerating the tank replacement is so we can get the communities that rely on Taltson back on hydro power as quickly as possible. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yeah, I appreciate the lengthy explanation or overview of -- I know there's been a lot going on. So my concern is that we don't necessarily plan ahead enough for future years for all of the basically asset management, but the repairs, the refurbishments, the major, you know, capital improvements that we know we're going to need within the power system, can the Minister assure us that, in fact, money is being set aside or has been set aside for all of the known repairs and refurbishments within the power system, say, in the next three years, or are we going to continue to see supplementary estimates come forward when, you know, facilities need to be repaired or refurbished in the future? Thank you, Madam Chair.
