Agreed.
Thank you. Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the witnesses into the chambers.
Would the Minister please introduce the witnesses.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. On my left, Bill MacKay, deputy minister of finance. On my right, Dave Heffernan, the assistant deputy minister and government chief information officer.
Okay, thank you. The committee has agreed to forego general comments. Does the committee agree to proceed to the details contained in the tabled document? Committee, agreed?
Agreed.
Thank you. Committee, the Department of Finance begins on page 32. We'll defer the department totals and review the estimates by activity summary beginning on page 33 with directorate and information items on page 34. Are there any questions? None.
Department of Finance, directorate, infrastructure investment, $41,600,000. Does the committee agree?
Agreed.
Thank you. Next we have the Office of the Chief Information Officer on page 36, with information found on page 37. Are there any questions? I'm going to go to the Member from Great Slave.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I'm very pleased to see that the Office of the Chief Information Officer is working to update and replace -- I don't know what the best word is for it -- outdated 9-1-1 systems. It's my understanding from reading a bit into it that this is both computer-aided dispatch as well as phone systems that have reached end of life and software. Can the Minister please tell me if this upgrade will help alleviate problems that we saw this past May in 2025 with a scheduled service outage? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. I'll go to the Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Let me see if the chief information officer has that here. Thank you.
Oh, sorry. I'll go to the assistant deputy minister.
Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. This project is meant to replace end of life systems that need to be replaced. It's for emergency response and emergency safety, public safety, and so it should alleviate some of those concerns, yes.
Thank you. I'll go back to the Member from Great Slave.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yeah, and I'll note too that the scheduled outage in May of 2025 was a NorthwesTel outage. I'm just curious if we can get some clarity as to whether these system upgrades would bypass that service or enhance our other capacity to have redundancies built into the system such that we wouldn't be, you know, having these service outages for especially smaller communities that might not have access to 9-1-1 services in a time of need. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. I'll go to the Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Part of the projects -- and, again, there are -- there's a couple of aspects to the work that's happening with respect to the 9-1-1 system and certainly one component of the second project really is to try to increase the integration with third party software as well as to integrate more with, you know, ensuring that -- yeah, that the systems do speak better to each other and can rely on GIS. At some point -- I'm hesitating only in that at some point does need to be work done with the NorthwesTel, or whoever the telecom provider or say cell phone company might be, and so there will always be some degree of uncertainty in that regard. I can't -- especially I can't control the private sector's telecommunications providers. But from our side, this is expected to be a system that will improve our ability to be online, be meaningful, and be triangulating what information the emergency responders need. Thank you.
Okay, Thank you. I'll go to the Member from Great Slave.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. And, yeah no, I can respect that the Minister does not have control over private operators.
I would request maybe, Mr. Chair, if the Minister is willing to speak with her Cabinet colleague in MACA, who is responsible for the 9-1-1 system, writ large and its operation, as to whether or not these redundancies can be looked at and meaningfully reported back to this House. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Okay, thank you. I'll go to the Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, there is actually quite a lot going on in both of these, so I'm happy to provide some further information, and either whether it's myself appropriately through the information side or whether it's through minister McKay's side, we could certainly provide something that can be made available and perhaps a tabled letter so that the public knows what's coming as well. I agree with the Member's point here. There's a lot of information in front of me about what these systems have, and I would agree that it's important to put that to the public. So rather than trying to read it all out here on the floor, Mr. Chair, we'll put this together. Thank you.
Thank you. I'll go back to the Member from Great Slave.
Yeah, thank you, Mr. Chair. And, really, more a comment than a question but, you know, considering public safety is one of our priorities in the Assembly and considering that these very detailed questions to both the MACA Minister and the Minister of Finance here today are coming directly from my constituents who are very concerned, and I would say, you know, rightfully so if we have outages and people are in emergencies and don't have access to emergency services, that is a crucial piece that we need to fill. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Okay. Thank you for -- I'll take that as a general comment. Is there any Members -- I'm going to go to Member from Yellowknife North.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. So I also wanted to ask about the NWT 9-1-1 and med-response -- well, first the computer-aided dispatch system.
So 9-1-1 was launched in November 2019, so that is less than six years ago. How is it possible that we're already at the end of life for a system that just launched less than six years ago? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. I'll go to the Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, the information I have is that these systems actually are much older than that. Perhaps, if I could, I'll turn this to the chief information officer, see if he could clarify that for us, please. Thank you.
To the assistant deputy minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. This system is about 10 years old that's being used for this technology, and actually the technology that runs this system, the underlying infrastructure, is actually about 15 years old. So that is far beyond its actual useful life so that's why it needs to be replaced.
Okay, thank you. I'll go back to the Member from Yellowknife North.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I mean, this poses a bit of a mystery to me that perhaps I can follow up on later because I do know for a fact that 9-1-1 launched in November 2019, and so I can't quite figure out why we would have launched using a system that was already 5 to 10 years old. Anyway, I do hope that going forward we are making a wise investment in technology that we have some assurance will last more than five years so we won't be back here again.
With this opportunity to sort of reboot the system, to use a very poor technology pun because I know very little about technology, are there -- in terms of the scope or the choice of the new system, I know that there have been challenges, for example coordinating the 9-1-1 computer dispatch system with, say, the city of Yellowknife's dispatch system, and my understanding, unless things have changed dramatically in the last few years, is that the computers didn't talk to each other and you literally had a dispatcher that would have to take all the information over the phone from a caller and then call the city of Yellowknife dispatch system and relay sort of word for word, literally playing a game of telephone, as to what the need was, which obviously wastes valuable time which every second matters in an emergency. So is there a plan to ensure that whatever new system we're putting in place can actually -- the computers can talk to each other so we can have an efficient and, you know, 21st century emergency response system? I'll stop there for now. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. I'll go back to the Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. And, Mr. Chair, just to clarify the first item, technology isn't necessarily bespoke to us when we take something on. So in this instance we, back in 2019, adopted the technology, but it wasn't brand new technology at the time. That, you know, limits the amount of capital outlay that you might have if you are not taking the newest and best but then it does result in a situation where six years on, we are looking to replace it. But, you know, six years is six years, and we've certainly learnt something from it, including the next series of questions, which is how to better integrate the system. And so, Mr. Chair, the information we have in front of us doesn't specifically name the city of Yellowknife so I would like to come back to the committee to just confirm that. I can say that the stronger detail about what this is supposed to involve does note that it is next generation 9-1-1 technology now, and it is intended to provide enhanced location accuracy, so that's the GPS and WiFi type triangulation that we wouldn't have had before, but also a lot more multimedia integration and call routing. So with that information, it sounds to me as though it would then therefore be able to communicate better across different systems. But as I say, I will certainly confirm that and provide that to the House. Thank you.
Okay, thank you. I'll go to the Member from Yellowknife North.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yeah, I am encouraged to hear about those new possibilities, and I do urge the department to consider that in, you know, choosing the technology going forward in the scope.
Does this mean that there will be a possibility -- I don't know what it's called but in some other places, the 9-1-1 system can get a GPS location for a caller, for example if they don't know exactly where they are or if they don't know the exact address or if there isn't an exact address of the place that they are, that there would be an ability for the 9-1-1 dispatch to get a GPS location of where that person is? Is that a possibility with the new system we're planning? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Okay, thank you. I'll go to the Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. So, again, this is the next generation, and it really is meant to be a forward-looking and future-looking type of capacity, including the situational awareness piece, which I believe is the technology or the goal that is being sought for here. So that is the direction we're trying to get to, and that does require bringing up the system that we have in place. So I hope that answers the question, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. I'll go back to the Member from Yellowknife North.
I'll just leave it by saying I also want to follow up with the Minister and the Minister of health in looking into what future capabilities that the med-response system could have. I know when it was first announced several Assemblies ago, the intention was for it to -- you know, that was the first phase, and then it was going to expand and have more and more capabilities. And I don't see that that's happened. So this technology change might be an opportunity to investigate how the capability of the med-response system could be sort of made more sophisticated and more helpful in terms of what the actual needs are, especially in the remote communities. So I'll be following up with the Minister about that. But I do hope that there's some real thought and foresight put into how we choose our technologies to make sure we get the most out of it this time. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Okay, thank you. I'll take that as a comment. Okay, thank you.
Next on my list I got is the Member from Range Lake.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. So I've asked about this, you know, about AI policy for the government, and I happily see correspondence from the Minister's office on how we're managing AI usage as a government. But I'm wondering if we are in discussions or planning to incorporate that into our information technology, like our enterprise-wide information technology systems. Because, you know, we're seeing more and more movement in this space. It's currently driving global markets and, you know, potentially we're entering into a bubble. But, regardless, I think it's safe to say the technology is here to stay, and there's a lot of infrastructure being put into it to support it. So are we trying to find a pathway through this changing environment so we can incorporate the technology to drive efficiency, improve programs, and improve just government effectiveness around the provision of services to citizens in the near future? Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. So, obviously -- or I shouldn't say obviously. But just to be clear, there's nothing in these capital plans that speaks directly to incorporating AI in any of these proposed additions or systems, I mean, although not to take away from the fact that they are certainly bringing up and enhancing the technology. A lot of the focus of the capital investments for finance is really to be enhancing our technology capacity and the infrastructure that is technology and computer systems. But that said, Mr. Chair, I do want to note this is certainly -- it is, as the Member notes, certainly on my radar and on the radar of the senior officials that are with me. We were at the digital services FPT just a few weeks ago now where it is one of the areas that you hear a lot from other jurisdictions who are starting to look for AI tools to implement AI tools, and I can say we are following up with those colleagues. It's an area where larger jurisdictions have more -- you know, simply more human capacity and more technology capacity within -- even just within larger municipal centres. So we've -- you know, we are going to be looking and we already are looking to what we can do with Alberta for example, in British Columbia for example, but really a lot of jurisdictions were open to sharing some of what they had. Now, where it will go, I can't say at this early stage. Procurement Shared Services is kind of an early -- you know, early investigator, if you will. They are looking to see if there's a -- if they can adopt some of the AI tools that were presented to us. We are also looking with our centre for geomatics up in Inuvik and what they can do. But it really, at this point, is trying to -- you know, we have rolled out co-pilot for staff. That is the policy the Member was mentioning, but we now need to look at what is on offer from other jurisdictions that we can most easily adapt. I'll point it back to the capital estimates, though, that we do need to bring some of our own systems up to date to be able to integrate those tools. Thank you.
Okay, thank you. I'll go back to the Member from Range Lake.
Thank you to the Minister for that. And I know it's emerging, and I know governments are still coming to grips with it and are moving slower than the private sector. But does the OCIO have a mandate to look at AI integration, like strategic AI integration to capital systems? I mean, I don't know what to call it, but that's kind of the idea here is to say have you tasked the OCIO to do this kind of work to be proactive about the implementation of emerging AI technology and tools into existing or new systems. Thank you.
Thank you. I'll go to the Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. At the risk of a spoiler alert, I can say that I've certainly conveyed that message. But given the question, that's really more for our chief information officer, so I'll send it to Mr. Heffernan, please.
Thank you. I'll go to the ADM.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yes, I would say we're always looking for opportunities for how do we integrate AI technologies into our existing systems, whether that's on our new capital projects like you see here today or whether it's on just standard operational technology. So as the Minister said, we've already rolled out some co-pilot chat for all staff across government and some training. We're looking for ways to adapt AI usage from other jurisdictions and what they're doing so we're always on the lookout for it, yes.
Okay, thank you. I'll go back to the Member from Range Lake.
